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Author Topic: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!  (Read 10168 times)
marauber
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2007, 02:33:19 am »

Quote from: Turambar on January 22, 2007, 01:47:54 am
Quote
Myth - "Firefox has lower System Requirements than Internet Explorer" - Example

Reality - Internet Explorer 6 has much lower minimum System Requirements than Firefox 2


Internet Explorer Internet Explorer - Source

Minimum:
486/66 MHz CPU
16 MB of RAM
11.5 MB of free disk space
Windows 98

Notes - Anyone who claims Internet Explorer 6 will not run on these requirements has never tested it.


Firefox Firefox - Source

Minimum:
233 MHz CPU
64 MB of RAM
50 MB of free disk space
Windows 98

Notes - The Recommended Requirements for Firefox are much worse:

Recommended:
500 MHz CPU
256 MB of RAM
100 MB of free disk space
Windows XP


Εδώ η δήλωση είναι ουσιαστικά άστοχη... στην ουσία συγκρίνει τα minimum με τα recommended...

καθώς στα minimum η σύγκριση δεν είναι ξεκάθαρη.

Επίσης δεν λέει ούτε ότι όντως λειτουργεί ο ΙΕ σε αυτές τις συνθήκες.

Αν και ο συγκεκριμένος μύθος δεν έχει και τόση πρακτική σημασία:
Δεν είναι ξεκάθαρη η σύγκριση στα minimum; Δηλαδή πόσο πιο ξεκάθαρη μπορεί να είναι όταν έχεις έναν 486 με έναν Pentium 2;;
Η διαφορά τους είναι γύρω στα 6 χρόνια! Επίσης και τα 16MB με τα 64MB;

Μπορείς να πεις ότι υπάρχουν και κάποιοι μύθοι που φαίνονται γελοίοι. Σωστά, και σε μένα φάνηκαν γελοίοι. Μην ξεχνάς όμως πως υπάρχουν άτομα που το πίστευαν αυτό το πράγμα.
Το θέμα είναι η γενική εικόνα...
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2007, 08:57:36 am »

Quote from: marauber on January 22, 2007, 01:40:09 am
Να κάνω μια ερώτηση: Από όλους όσους έκαναν πόστ, πόσοι διάβασαν το link που παρέθεσα στην αρχική σελίδα; Πάντως σίγουρα όχι ο Wade Tongue

Πράγματι.  Μια ματιά του έριξα και δεν το διάβασα. Roll Eyes
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2007, 13:00:50 pm »

     Θα συμφωνήσω ότι το site ήταν φανερά κατά του firefox ίσως περισσότερο από ότι θα έπρεπε. Μερικά ήταν όντως γελοία.
     Σε δυο πράγματα όμως έχει δίκιο. Στο ογκώδες μέγεθος της αλεπούς στη μνήμη, κοντά στα 50ΜΒ για μένα, νομίζω πως όλοι συμφωνούμε σε αυτό. Και δεύτερον, οτι ο Opera είναι εμφανώς γρηγορότερος, ακόμα και από το fastfox που εγκατέστησα.
     Τέλος, το forcastfox είναι πολύ χειρότερο από το αντίστοιχο extension του Opera.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2007, 13:39:34 pm »

Πως λεγεται το αντιστοιχο του Opera να το δοκιμασω?
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2007, 14:43:30 pm »

root?
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2007, 14:47:24 pm »

Quote from: fugiFOX on January 22, 2007, 14:43:30 pm
root?


Με την άδεια μου...


ΜΙΛΑ!!!!!
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2007, 14:48:57 pm »

Quote from: fugiFOX on January 22, 2007, 14:43:30 pm
root?
Grin Grin Grin! Δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί απαγορεύεται να απαντήσεις. Από ότι έχω καταλάβει η υπόσχεση είναι να μη σχολιάσεις τη Microsoft ή κάνω λάθος; Τώρα μιλάμε για το Opera vs Firefox.
      Το αντίστοιχο στο Opera λέγεται touchtheSky.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2007, 15:05:11 pm »

Εγώ θέω ανα αθετηθεί οποιαδήποτε υπόσχεση. Δεν πρέπει να ευνουχίζουμε τις απόψεις!
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void DrawShadow()
        {
            shadow = Matrix.CreateShadow(-directionalLight0Direction, game.functions.GetPlane(ref game.player.position, 5));
            Matrix[] bones = game.heroPlayer.GetSkinTransforms();
            Matrix[] shadowBones = new Matrix[bones.Length];

            for (int i = 0; i < shadowBones.Length; i++)
            {
                shadowBones = bones * shadow;
            }

            foreach (ModelMesh mesh in game.heroModel.Meshes)
            {
                foreach (Effect effect in mesh.Effects)
                {
                    effect.CurrentTechnique = effect.Techniques["Shadow"];
effect.Parameters["Bones"].SetValue(shadowBones);  effect.Parameters["View"].SetValue(game.viewMatrix);
effect.Parameters["Projection"].SetValue(game.projectionMatrix);
                }
                mesh.Draw();
            }
           
        }
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2007, 15:19:33 pm »

ξεκινώ λοιπον. wav

πρωτού παραθέσω τη δική μου εκτίμηση για το site
παραθέτω δύο σχολιασμούς που παρουσιάζουν αρκετό ενδιαφέρον.

Διαβάστε τους και θα αρχίσετε αμέσως να καταλαβαίνετε το σκηνικό.


The last time I looked at the site, it was an excellent example two logical fallacies:

1. Straw man, i.e. refuting a claim that the other side never actually made.

2. Selection bias, i.e. picking only data that supports your hypothesis and ignoring the rest.

An example of #1 would be "debunking" the claims that "Firefox is  secure" or "Firefox is bug free" -- well, last I looked, Mozilla only claimed it was more secure than IE, not that it was 100% secure, and no one in their right mind would seriously claim anything as complicated as a web browser was "bug free."

An example of #2 would be citing the 8.7% global share to debunk the 10% figure, then saying that the 20% figure in Europe isn't trustworthy.  One set of numbers are OK, because they fit his thesis.  The other set is discarded, because they contradict it.

You may notice in the W3C standards section, where he linked to a standards compliance table, then changed the link to redirect through Google, because he was deliberately misinterpreting the stats.  Now he says next to nothing about the stats themselves (because they would all disagree with his thesis), but instead spends a whole paragraph in an ad hominem attack on the author of the page.

εκτός των άλλων είναι και ψεύτης!
He even takes people's quotes out of context to suggest the opposite of what they originally said. 
For example, he quotes Asa D. as saying,
"...Firefox Myths. Good stuff - give it a read." 
What Asa actually said was,
"Robert Accettura has a nice response to the poorly constructed and mostly worthless article Firefox Myths. Good stuff - give it a read."

While some statements on the page are true -- for instance, Opera did pioneer many of the features that we all take for granted now, and has had fewer known security vulnerabilities than Firefox -- the site is full of half-truths, misleading statements, misrepresentations and other intellectual dishonesty.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2007, 15:23:54 pm »

It just seems like the author of the website is nitpicking at what users have said about the browser. They act as if the company made all of these claims. I love the one about Firefox passing the Acid2 test. The source post states it passes the test with the assistance from a Greasemonkey script that is 5 lines of code. The Firefox Myths website completely ignores that was said. Someone should get their facts straight. Yes, some people are a little over the top about Firefox and say some off the wall things, but it is a great browser and has fewer vulnerabilities than Internet Explorer.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2007, 15:26:37 pm »

και τώρα που αποδείχτηκαν σαθρές οι κατηγορίες,
ας δούμε και τα αληθινά Firefox Myths.
Τα αντιγραφω εδώ ως απλό κείμενο, όποιος θέλει να τα δει formatted
που φαίνονται και καλύτερα στο μάτι μπορεί να πάει εδώ
http://trickypuzzle.ifastnet.com/firefoxtop10/mythsmyths.html

1. Firefox has lower System Requirements than Internet Explorer.

"But that's pretty false! Just look at what the page says!"

Ah, that's what it looks like on the surface. But, did you take into consideration that IE6 runs on Windows' memory? While running Windows 2000, that means a minumum total of:
233 MHz processing speed
87 MB of RAM on XPSP2, 168(!) on XPx64 edition, 87 on Windows Server 2003SP1, and
25 MB of free disk space (considering that IE runs through Windows Explorer)
An 800x600 Super-VGA monitor with 256 colours or more

Compare that to Firefox's, which is:
233 MHz Processor
64 MB of RAM on Windows, 128 on Mac, 64 on Linux
Actually, only 25 MB of disk space, considering only the standard install
No real screen requirements...
2. Firefox uses less memory than Internet Explorer.

"Reality: Internet Explorer uses much less memory than Firefox."

Well, Firefox is a standalone application. Is IE a standard application?
I thought not.

3. (This isn't really a myth about Firefox) This work is copyrighted by the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

Hasn't this guy heard of regular copyrighting? The DMCA isn't really supposed to be applied over textual works or any works in general where a non-digital copy can be made. A copyright for text under the DMCA is pointless. Digital text work can easily be printed anywhere outside the US without circumvention punishments. The DMCA copyright is just to intimidate the reader. If this guy really wants to protect his stuff, he should register his copyright. Anyways, copying "in whole or in part" means that I can't even put the letter "I" on my website because it's a "part" of his. So, the DMCA doesn't really apply to works where a non-digital copy can be made. If someone could give me his email... I'll straighten this issue out with him.

4. Firefox is the fastest Web Browser.

Mm hmm... so Opera is the fastest. Did we ever say that Firefox was the fastest browser? We only said that Firefox was faster than Internet Explorer.

4.1. Firefox is faster than Internet Explorer 6
This isn't even remotely false. Sure, maybe Maxthon improves things a little bit. But the truth is, more windows means more memory.

4.2. Firefox is faster than Internet Explorer 7
Gotta compliment this guy on his persistence. He even put in his notes on his IE6 one that "The argument that components of IE may load during startup is nillified by Opera's start times." Well, doesn't this nullify IE7's argument as well, in Firefox's favour?

4.3. Firefox is faster than Mozilla.
Like I said, when did we ever say that? We only ever said that Firefox is faster than Internet Explorer.

5. Firefox gained market share in September 2006.

...and yet you only counted that one month? Compare it to the massive amount of market share that Firefox gained during the whole of 2006.

5.1. Firefox achieved 20% market share in January 2006 in Europe.
When did we ever say that? XiTi recently improved their study rates and now, even in April 2006, Europe still has only 19.4% market share. In September 2006, Firefox achieved 21.9% market share in Europe.

5.2. Firefox achieved 10% market share in 2005.
According to this website, "Nanobot" tells us about three sources that actually did report 10% market share. And how does this guy know when Firefox's fiscal year starts anyway?

6. Firefox achieved 150 million downloads in January 2006.

Also according to the website mentioned in myth myth #5, their 150-million download blooper passed 150 million downloads in early March, just a month later. So, this really isn't much of a myth.

7. Firefox is secure.

It is secure, compared to IE7.
"Secunia lists 137 security vulnerabilities / 37 advisories in Firefox, 90 rated Highly Critical.
Mozilla lists 137 security vulnerabilities in Firefox, 61 Critical.
CVE lists 201 security vulnerabilities in Firefox..."
...but compared to what?
Secunia lists 106 advisories for Internet Explorer 6.x alone (18 of which remain unpatched), let alone vulnerabilities. I don't have the patience to count, but I can guarantee you that there are more vulnerabilities.
(Mozilla can't really list vulnerabilities for IE...)
Could someone tell me where on the Microsoft webpage there is a list of IE vulnerabilities? Email me here. thank you.
CVE lists 476(!) vulnerabilities in IE. NOW how secure do you think IE is?

7.1. Firefox is the most secure web browser.
Now, when did we ever say that?!? We only said it was more secure than IE.

7.2. Firefox is more secure than IE6.
This guy really needs to update his stuff. Last time I checked, it was true. Right now, Mozilla Firefox 1.x has 5 vulnerabilities, 2 of which are partially patched. IE 6.x, on the other hand, has 29 vulnerabilities, 20 of which remain unpatched, and 9 which are partially patched.

7.3. Firefox patches vulnerabilities quickly.
So far as the general public is concerned, this is true. The only ones that have been unpatched for a long time aren't that critical.

7.4. Firefox is more secure because it is a standalone application.
When did we ever say that?

7.5. Firefox is more secure because it does not load ActiveX
Well, this is true, although very few are related, there are still some! As he said himself, "you only need one vulnerability to be insecure."

7.6. Firefox extensions are safe.
Most of them are, and all of the commonly-used ones are. and one of his "realities" listed are actually against an IE extension. Pretty misleading...

7.7. Firefox is a solution to spyware.
This is one of the most ridiculous myths that he's posted. We NEVER said that Firefox was a solution to spyware. Whoever thinks so, in my opinion, doesn't deserve Firefox.

7.8. Firefox has better anti-phishing than IE.
Oh, sure, Firefox returns that stuff. But the Netcraft toolbar teamed with the Google Anti-Phishing function still owns IE.

8. Firefox is bug-free.

Once again, when did we EVER say that? Not much of a myth in my opinion...

8.1. Firefox's memory leak is a bug.
Well, if it WERE a bug, that would really be a problem for Firefox. It is a feature, and doesn't really count as a memory leak. Opera's "fast-forward" thingy... don't count on it. A google page has a LOT of links... I can't really comment on Opera's page caching abilities, since I don't know about them myself.

9. Firefox supports Extensions and IE doesn't.

Oh, sure IE supports extensions. [buzzer]! The only ones i know of that actually help IE are Google Web Accelerator and the GotDotNet/Windows Live Toolbar, which adds tabbed browsing. All the others are toolbars, which contain a few links, maybe a search bar or two. There is a site called ieaddons.com, but most of the extensions there (download manager, anyone?) are proprietary and some even cost money! Puh-leeze... the Firefox extensions are much richer and are all free.

9.1. Firefox supports extensions and Opera doesn't.
Opera's widgets are definitely a sort of extension, but
they can't really help the browser. They are just separate programs that are meant to help the browser.

10. Firefox got to integrated search first.

So this is false. Who gives a damn? As long as Firefox has it, people won't care if Opera got to it first.

11. Firefox got to pop-up blocking first.

Well, actually this is false too. But like i said in myth myth number 10, who gives a damn! As long as it's better, who cares if they got to it first?

11.1. Firefox blocks all pop-ups.
That depends on your definition of pop-up. Firefox blocks all pop-up windows, but you'd need a text browser like Lynx to competely eradicate sticky and drop-down pop-ups. Opera doesn't even have functions for this!

12. The Firefox RSS icon was stolen by IE7.

Why this is even in here, I have no idea. Why would stealing the RSS icon be a problem for Firefox?

13. Firefox was the first browser to introduce tabbed browsing.

Gotta give this guy points for consistency. He's stuck with the same argument for 3 myths already! Like I said before, who gives a damn!

14. Firefox fully supports W3C standards.

When did we ever say that? Sure, Firefox only has a total of 70% support for all W3C standards (see my top 10 reasons page) but it certainly beats the crap out of IE's support. IE, sure, has good support (81%) for HTML 4.01, but that cringes to Firefox's 92%, or even Opera's 86%.

14.1. The W3C develops recommendations, not standards.
What does this even have to do with Firefox? This guy is completely going off-topic.

14.2. W3C standards define a webpage.
This is not true, and yet still unrelated to Firefox.

15. Firefox fully supports the most important W3C standards.

And this guy goes to a website that doesn't even help IE a bit! Sure, Opera passes the test, but he's only looking to the Acid2 test. The Acid2 test is 80% CSS! So the only thing he's saying is that CSS is the most important web standard. Wrong again!

16. Firefox is completely compatible with all websites.

Firefox is compatible with non-ActiveX websites. The only problem is that people have been so used to giving special hacks for IE, they've completely forgotten about Firefox! There's a new standard on the road, guys!

16.1. Firefox supports progressive rendering and Internet Explorer does not.
What is progressive rendering anyways? WTF... it seems like it's the auto-closing tags thingy. IE supports progressive rendering, but doesn't seem to support non-progressive rendering. That's one problem with IE...

In conclusion, all these myths seem to me to be nothing but a bunch of baloney. I hope my myths myths page has led you to believe that this stuff is all fake.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2007, 15:43:42 pm »

Μερικά από τα παραδείγματα που δίνει για να στηρίξει τους αποκαλούμενους μύθους του,
είναι απλώς ξεκαρδιστικά.
Βρίσκει από δω και απο κει σκόρπια quotes τα οποία μπορεί να έγιναν από τον οποιονδήποτε άσχετο
και τα παρουσιάζει ως θέσεις του Firefox team.

υπό άλλες συνθήκες θα αγνοούσα τη συγκεκριμένη γελοία σελίδα,
σαν και αυτές υπάρχουν πολλές.

αυτό που με βάζει σε προβληματισμό και σκέψη είναι η κατάληξή της.
Εάν δείτε στο τέλος της σελίδας, δίνει ένα τροποποιημένο κουμπί της αλεπούς,
το οποίο παρεπιπτόντως είναι ηθικά παράνομο και ανέντιμο αφού δεν ζήτησε άδεια από το δημιουργό του,
άρα καταπατά τους νόμους του ανοικτού λογισμικού
,
με σκοπό τη διάδοση της σελίδας του με τρόπο καρμπόν όπως και η αλεπού.

Τέτοια κατάφορη επίθεση εναντίον της αλεπούς και η τόση έντονη επιθυμία του να διαδώσει τους ψευδείς του ισχυρισμούς
μπορεί να δικαιολογηθεί μόνο με 2 τρόπους.
Είτε ο συγγραφέας της σελίδας είναι τόσο εκνευρισμένος με την άνοδο του browser του μέλλοντος
είτε από πίσω κρύβεται κάποια εταιρεία.
Προσωπικά, διαβάζοντας και το προφίλ του, καταλήγω στο δέυτυερο σενάριο και οφείλω να ομολογήσω
ότι πράγματι η γνωστή εταιρεία εάν κάτι ξέρει καλά αυτό είναι το μάρκετιγκ,
αφού βρήκε πάλι έναν τρόπο να επιτεθεί σε ανταγωνιστικό προιόν που κερδίζει συνεχώς έδαφος,
με χτυπήματα κάτω από τη μέση, αλλά βάζοντας κάποιο φερεφωνο να κάνει τη βρώμικη δουλειά.
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2007, 15:45:37 pm »

marauber εγώ τελείωσα προς το παρόν,
θα σε περιμένω για τον αντίλογο,
αλλά εάν θες να συζητήσουμε σοβαρά
θα ήθελα να προσέξεις να πέσεις στις ίδιες παγίδες
που πέφτει και η συγκεκριμένη σελίδα
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xristoforos_
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2007, 16:16:24 pm »

έπεσε τώρα ο πυρετός φούφι;

ixic_
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Re: Firefox Myths: Η αλήθεια αποκαλύπτεται τώρα!!
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2007, 16:26:10 pm »

Έτσι μπράβο Φούτζι, βάλε τα πράγματα στη θέση τους!!
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